The saga continues . . .Well Robert Fergusson did write back one more time. I have now carefully reread the legalize at the bottom of each mail. Based on this comment it would seem that I can quote Robert's mails as I was the "intended recipient":
The material contained in this email may be confidential, and may also be the subject of copyright and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this document is prohibited.
Could someone please post a comment with advice regarding this. As I read the disclaimer it seems to me that only unintended recipients cannot disclose or quote it.
I want to be careful about this because I want to agitate Hillsong for one reason and not two reasons. I want to keep the argument relentlessly pointed at their shameful practices when it comes to adherence to the biblical Gospel and their willingness to edit Scripture as they please. We are to submit to Scripture. Scripture does not submit to the pragmatic practices of Hillsong. I do not want to provide an opening for them to argue about the secondary issue of copyright. If only they paid as much attention to detail when it comes to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
So if I can receive further advice confirming that I am interpreting the disclaimer correctly, then I will publish Robert Fergusson's mails. I know some of you want to read them - and you may find them quite lame anyway. It would seem that his "apologetical approach" is to take his bat and go home. He seems to think that I want to argue about who belives most in repentance and the authority of Scripture - when nothing could be further from the truth. Scripture has no authority to people who vandalize it and I cannot find anything to suggest that "Hillsong" believes in preaching repentance at all. One of us believes in these things and the other doesn't. I was hopeful that he could figure this out - I thought my explanation was quite simple. Maybe Robert Fergusson is through with writing or maybe his third e-mail is delayed - perhaps he is still digging through Brian Houston's sermon archive looking for that elusive message calling sinners to repentance. Either way, I don't think I'll be hearing from him.
Nonetheless Fergusson's second mail provoked my third mail:
Now Robert, be reasonable. They are fair questions that I am asking. How can you even suggest that repentance from sin is discussed in the Gospel presentation found in the CD? I was hopeful you would address the issue - not pretend it doesn't exist! I am not suggesting I believe the Gospel more than you - I am saying that if you do believe the Gospel then you will put a stop to the false one being presented on behalf of Hillsong. Doesn't it concern you at all that Hillsong propogates information telling people to pray this prayer and then you are a child of God with no call to repentance from sin. No mention of the cross. No mention of our guilt. Please tell me this is of concern to you as a preacher of the Gospel?
Cameron
Based on feedback, this series has revealed to me that Hillsong is a far bigger sacred cow than I ever imagined. A sacred cow that needs to be carved up and barbequed. This isn't over . . .
Go On To Part 4
Go Back To Part 2
Go Back To Part 1
12 comments:
I want to give you the go head Cameron, but I'm not a lawyer.
Honestly, I think it would be okay, (not only because I want to see what he said), but because I don't think you can copyright an e-mail response.
I'd probably post it due to my lack of scruples in regards to things like this (are they gonna file an international lawsuit?.
I think you're doing the right thing though being cautious, so don't listen to me.
You seem to be really adamant that in order for the gospel to be preached "correctly" that you must use the word "repent" or "repentance". But isn't this an action? Can someone not truly repent from sin, or be told about repenting from sin without using this word? It is defined as "to feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin" I think that you can expalin this without using the actual word. But reading over these blog posts it seems like that's what you believe. Is this right?
Repentance was never mentioned or described. I would not say that you absolutely must use the word repent but I cannot think of a better one. Furthermore, genuine repentance involves a turning away from sin.
Hillsongs faith statment says as much also. The concept is not even remotely expressed in any of Hillsong's gospel presentations either verbally or in written form. My grieveance has never been over the use of the word, but over the complete failure to teach it. Look at what they did to 2 Chronicles 7:14 which clearly expresses repentance without using the word. When Hillsong removes the line "turn from our wicked ways" from the verse they are removing repentance.
I hope this makes myself clear.
Something that I am becoming increasingly aware of is the lack of professing Christians to even be able to discern what sin is. Sure most of them don't go out to the bar and drop $60 on Jager bombs, or pick up prostitutes off the corner but quite commonly they live a life filled with a mix of idolatry+Christianity,
mixing self serving+Christ serving
The sacrifice of praise we are to offer to God should not be a partial offering, but a whole offering; not a filth covered offering, but an offering washed in the blood of the Lamb (another thing the visible church doesn't seem to understand). I think the worship and prayers of many contemporary christians are a putrid stench in the nose of God. He hates mixture.
And that gets to the point I'd like to address with the anonymous poster. When you look at the Church in the west, do you think they are repentant? do you think they know what sin is? I mean really? Are they serious? This isn't Christianity, it's a crisis!
Will the real Church please stand up?!?
I had a powerful deliverance by the hand of God and He dwells in me and because I know Him and what He loves and hates, I am repelled by the modern church and her antics.
I am almost ashamed to say I'm part of the Church sometimes because I get painted with the same brush as every other charlatan who says they're a christian under the sun, even though they have NO idea what it means. I am convinced that the visible Church of today is an embarrassment to a Holy God.
It also gives the verse an entirely different context. If one were to understand the context it which it was originally written, you would note that repentance is very much THE dominant theme in that passage of scripture. To do what they have done is terrible as they are diluting the message and Holy Word through fear - just not the type of fear we hope for.
Dodgey in Adelaide
Quote: "The concept is not even remotely expressed in any of Hillsong's gospel presentations either verbally or in written form."
To which kind of written form do you refer? I can remember of a few song lyrics where the topic is expressed, however without using the exact term "repentance". I think since the bible uses different language to express the concept, it is ok for us to do so likewise.
I agree, that Hillsong fails to communicate certain doctrinal and practical parts of discipleship, but so do many other churches. There is one difference: They are not in the limelight like Hillsong is.
I recently listened into Brian Houstons conference message at the 2009 Hillsong Conference and what I heard was better (in comparison) than some of the guest speakers but still very one-sided and focused on positivist language.
I find it odd when a pastor preaches about the "main thing" and uses a text from 1. Corinthians 13 instead of one specifically dealing with Christs work and example.
I read in the bible that Jesus once preached to a crowd with the effect that many turned away from Him because the message was very tough and challenging. My guess is that many churches (not only Hillsong) today are communicating in a way that primarily majors on avoiding people physically turning away.
Still, I also believe that from the large numbers of people being in or going through such churches God will reach people and change them. In my opinion to assume that such churches are no good at all or even a curse is a wrong conclusion.
To those who are not familiar with the way things are done at Hillsong,nothing is done without the knowledge of the senior pastors.
The only thing that matters to Hillsong now is the amount of money they receive from their followers or customers.
Hillsong conference is all about sales of products by them and quest speakers.
They will change scriptures to make sure that new converts or potential tithers are not scared off with any teaching about self denial or repentence.
The senior pastor of Hillsong does not draw a salary from the church but lives of the sales of his books and love offering from preaching circuit around the world.
Brian and his wife told a reporter that they only made a combined income of $16,000 net per year.
A former pastors of hillsong was shocked to find out that Brian Houston was lying about his income when asked by the media not long ago.
Its very sad,no wonder why Jesus warnned us about the love of money.
hi everybody
just signed up and wanted to say hello while I read through the posts
hopefully this is just what im looking for looks like i have a lot to read.
Greetings
I just wanted to say hi :)
Hey Guys! Just wanted to say hello to the new community :). Thanks for letting me in! :D
Thank you for exposing Hillsong. I started having concerns about this church when I heard Randy Rothwell speak about how the church got so big. He said that when Brian Houston took over, each Sunday the church attendance continued to decline so to save the church from dying (wish it would have) he stated preaching while swinging from a rope. Unfortunately it worked. Sad commentary when people go to church to be entertained.
Entertainment: one of the many idols when have place in "The House of God."
Brian Houston, who's on top of the ponzi scheme, is anathematized to even know any better. He's a true wolf, and he can continue to do what he's doing, and only thing that'll ever come out of his 'ministry' is nothing but tares. Stay away from Hillsong United/Hillsong Live stuff. They are a business. I've noticed Brian Houston, and the whole Houston family to be very proud and arrogant. Nothing like what a real Christian is supposed to be. And yes, I speak from experience, since I've encountered them first hand. Avoid such people, and do not buy anything that comes from there.
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